New user - Cat with squamous cell carcinoma

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Antonio
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New user - Cat with squamous cell carcinoma

Post by Antonio »

Hello everybody, I have just joined the forum. I have found it rich with information and friendly.
I am Italian and live in Italy, so if I make some mistakes in my posts, please, be patient.
I have two cats, Lola, 16y 10m old, and Pallina, 15y 10m old. Both taken from the street.

Lola is the unlucky one, she was found when she was 10 days old, she was bottle fed and raised by me and my wife. She was diagnosed with CKD at the age of 6 and she's been treated since with excellent results. At the age of 11 she was diagnosed with a carcinoma inside one of her nostrils, she was sneezing too often, but the vet kept saying it was just a cold! Lola was treated with radiation therapy and everything went fine.
One year ago she started feeling sick and weak. Dozens of visits and blood works couldn't help her until two months later, when one of the many vets I was taking her to found out it was hyperaldosteronism. She had to wait three months before she was ready for a risky surgery in July, but this went fine as well.
Only five weeks later we were hit by the last bad news, Lola had a squamous cell carcinoma in her mouth, under her tongue. It couldn't be operated and the only treatment was the chemotherapy along with a new session of radiation therapy, both done in October and November.
Unfortunately this time we are losing the battle. I was told we have found the cancer too late... but I had taken the cat to the vets as soon as I realized that she started showing difficulties at eating her dry food and she was drooling a bit, but three different vets told me it was just a gingivitis and gave me an oral cleaner for teeth which, of course, didn't work, so I should blame those vets for the wrong diagnosis!
A few days ago my beautiful cat had half of her tongue removed, but she hasn't lost the joy of life, she's still looking for cuddles and lap, she purrs at me everytime she's with me and kneads on my stomach, she follows me everywhere and explores the house though she's blind... she lost her sight at the beginning of the hyperaldosteronism nightmare!
During the time between the diagnosis in April and the surgery in July the vets also found out she is FIV+, though the test we had done many years before told us she was fine. She's an indoor cat, so it was a shock to me!

I know her days are numbered, the vets told me I will have to decide when it's time to put an end to her sufferings, and as a matter of fact they already pushed me more than once, but my cat is still very lively and joyful, she shows no pain or else, so I don't know what to do at the moment.
Because of her mouth condition she can only eat and drink when I feed her with a syringe and a fluid food, at least every 4-5 hours, all the rest is absolutely normal.

Is there in this forum someone else who had or has a similar experience or that can help me understand what kind of signs I have to see before taking the final decision? As I said, at the moment it doesn't look like the time has come.
Thanks from the bottom of my heart!
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Re: New user - Cat with squamous cell carcinoma

Post by Ruth B »

Welcome to the forum, and I have to disagree with you, Lola is not the unlucky one, she has been extremely lucky to find you. From bottle feeding her as a kitten, through all the various treatments she has needed during her life, to now, when you know she has reached her twilight time and want to make sure she has the best treatment possible but also to make sure she doesn't suffer unnecessarily, that type of love and care is something so many cats can only dream of, so congratulations to you and your family.

As for the reason for the post, I'm afraid I have no experience of condition, however I have had to go through having cats put to sleep for both illness and old age, and in everyone of those cases I was in no doubt that the time had come and it always seemed to happen very quickly in the end, normally only a day or two between being happy and wanting to live, to the spark having left them, the light gone from their eyes and the feeling that they were ready to go. From what you write about Lola she is a long way from being there. Not being able to eat herself is obviously a big concern, but as long as you are happy feeding her and you don't feel that you are having to force it into her then I don't see it as being a problem, if she starts fighting the syringe and not wanting food and drink then that would probably be an indication that she has had enough. Constantly sitting in a hunched up position and not being interested in what is going on around her would also be indicative that she is ready to go.

I am sure others will be on later who might know more about her particular condition and what signs indicate she is deteriorating.

I would also like to congratulate you on your English. As someone who is absolutely appalling at languages I am always impressed and a little embarrassed when I read something like this and know it isn't the persons first language.
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Re: New user - Cat with squamous cell carcinoma

Post by Crewella »

I can only echo what Ruth has said and congratulate you on the love and care that you have given your cat. Like Ruth, I have been where you are now on several occasions, though for different reasons, and all I can say is that you know her best and you WILL know when she starts to lose interest in the world around her and has had enough.

When I came here seeking similar advice, long ago, I was told 'better a day too early than a day too late', which I found very helpful and reassuring. Cats are very good at hiding the fact that they are in pain, and when she does start to go downhill and you're worried about making 'that' decision it's worth bearing in mind. You have my sympathy at this difficult time. xx
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Re: New user - Cat with squamous cell carcinoma

Post by Antonio »

Ruth B wrote: Not being able to eat herself is obviously a big concern, but as long as you are happy feeding her and you don't feel that you are having to force it into her then I don't see it as being a problem, if she starts fighting the syringe and not wanting food and drink then that would probably be an indication that she has had enough. Constantly sitting in a hunched up position and not being interested in what is going on around her would also be indicative that she is ready to go.
Thanks for your warm welcome, Ruth!
To be honest, Lola isn't accepting the syringe without a bit of fight. She's not scratching me or trying to flee that moment, but of course it's a kind of manoeuvre so unnatural to her. However she swallows her food and after the meal is done I think I can say she seems happy with it and goes back to her things or to sleep. What she doesn't like is me forcing her mouth slightly open to allow the syringe to reach the back of her tongue and sometimes she miaows loudly.
When she's hungry she lets me know because she uses me as a scratch post :D so I know she's asking for food.
I reckon that as long as she asks for food she is still rather fine.
The hunched up or meatloaf positions are something that I know I have to look at. So far it happened a couple of times, but after that she has always recovered quickly and had, and still has, several days of pretty good life. The doctors who treated Lola with the radiation therapy told me to see if the bad days are more than the good days and when the good days are reduced to none then that is the time. Another doctor told me that I am forcing Lola to live because I'm pushing the food down her throat and this is against the responsibility of a good pet owner.
I'm really disoriented and also a bit numb :(
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Re: New user - Cat with squamous cell carcinoma

Post by Antonio »

Crewella wrote:I can only echo what Ruth has said and congratulate you on the love and care that you have given your cat. Like Ruth, I have been where you are now on several occasions, though for different reasons, and all I can say is that you know her best and you WILL know when she starts to lose interest in the world around her and has had enough.

When I came here seeking similar advice, long ago, I was told 'better a day too early than a day too late', which I found very helpful and reassuring. Cats are very good at hiding the fact that they are in pain, and when she does start to go downhill and you're worried about making 'that' decision it's worth bearing in mind. You have my sympathy at this difficult time. xx
Hi Crewella, thanks for your kind words!
What frightens me is that I could misunderstand a bad day and take it as the final day. As I wrote above, it happened that Lola has had one or two bad days when she seemed at the end of the road, but then she would wake up on the next day and she was absolutely fine. Since Christmas it happened twice. Had I listened to those signal I would have missed the last six weeks of her wonderful company and love.
But again I could misunderstand a good day, that she's having only because I'm forcing her to have it.
I wish they could talk :(
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Re: New user - Cat with squamous cell carcinoma

Post by Lilith »

Hi Antonio and welcome :)

VERY sorry to hear about Lola. As has been said, I feel you will know when it's time to let her go.

Decades ago I had a girl with mouth cancer, although the vet (a good vet) didn't give me much info but now I realise that's what it was. I remember being told that removing part of her mouth was an option but things never got to that stage; the vet preferred to try antibiotics and like Lola, Shashi still enjoyed life.

One morning she was due to go to the vet's but when I got up I went straight to the phone and booked an earlier appointment. She really was out of it; I knew what a bad day looked like but this was a worse day. A night or two before the little devil had been demanding my Chinese takeaway with menaces but now the situation had changed. I think as well it's a gut reaction - hard to describe I know. She passed out in my arms just before the vet gave her the injection, so she knew nothing about it, just went to sleep in my arms. The change in them is obvious, when it's time to let them go.

I do hope that Lola has a lot more time on this stable 'plateau' and that you can both enjoy life together for a good while yet, all the very very best x
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Re: New user - Cat with squamous cell carcinoma

Post by Antonio »

Lilith wrote: She passed out in my arms just before the vet gave her the injection, so she knew nothing about it, just went to sleep in my arms. The change in them is obvious, when it's time to let them go.

I do hope that Lola has a lot more time on this stable 'plateau' and that you can both enjoy life together for a good while yet, all the very very best x
Hi Lilith, thanks for your kind welcome! :)
I'm so sorry to read about your Sashi, it must have been terrible to be powerless in that moment. Sometimes I wish it would be all smooth, without doubts and though I know it's a terrible thought to have, I'd wish Lola passed away in her sleep, painlessly...
I'm so scared to act too early... Crewelle wrote that it's better a day too early than a day too late, I agree with her but I also disagree, because I will never know how early I have been.
I feel like I would die with her :( but you could understand that I'm selfish and I'm keeping her here to save myself. In fact it's the opposite, I and Lola have a very strong bond and I love her more than myself, I have done, am doing and will do anything for her and I would renounce everything for her sake, she knows that, and I think she could feel betrayed if I were too early.
I'm sleeping four hours each night and have only one meal a day to take care of her. I might sound crazy, but I couldn't do less for her, or for every other pet.
I did the same before, for another cat, Tom, who died from FIP in 2013, but for him it was much easier to decide, he was still able to eat, drink and groom till his last minute, then on a day, all of a sudden he passed out and we decided to put him to sleep. It was heartbreaking, but we hadn't to go through weeks and weeks of doubts.
My heart is aching...
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Re: New user - Cat with squamous cell carcinoma

Post by Lilith »

You don't sound crazy at all, but I think you need to get more food and sleep; to go without is going to rob you of strength and you need to stay strong for Lola.

She does sound to be doing well at the moment and from what you describe of Tom you will know when that changes.

I'm so sorry you and she are having to go through this, all the very best to you both.
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Re: New user - Cat with squamous cell carcinoma

Post by Didi »

I have no experience with mouth cancers but 12 months ago I had to make that awful decision and yes sometimes I feel so bad and scared that I made it to soon but most of the time I know it was the right time. I think we hav such bonds with our cats that we just know when the time has come, it's possibly the hardest decision to make but also the bravest and when our cats are ready when they feel the time is right then they find ways to tell us. It sounds as if Lola is not there yet just a bit put out by the syringe feeding. im sure when she is ready then she will let you know and it will be clear to you that the time has come to give her one last gift one last great act demonstrating your love for her by letting her go.
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Re: New user - Cat with squamous cell carcinoma

Post by booktigger »

I'm so sorry to hear this - it definitely sounds like you are going above and beyond for your girl. It is hard to know the right time, but the reasoning behind doing it too early is to prevent suffering - I've let most of mine go early, I've never regretted it as while yes, I've lost time with them, they have all been terminally ill and I saved potential suffering, as they can't tell us how they are feeling. The ones that I haven't, I've been able to see I'm their eyes that they have had enough. Hope that helps.

In the meantime, spoil her as much as you can, and take as many pics as you can, so you have good memories
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Re: New user - Cat with squamous cell carcinoma

Post by Antonio »

Lilith wrote:You don't sound crazy at all, but I think you need to get more food and sleep; to go without is going to rob you of strength and you need to stay strong for Lola.

She does sound to be doing well at the moment and from what you describe of Tom you will know when that changes.

I'm so sorry you and she are having to go through this, all the very best to you both.
This morning Lola looked like a bit tired and sleepy, but after about two hours later she was very lively. One hour ago she asked me to be taken outside. She's an indoor cat but she's allowed outside when I can control her. She enjoyed the sunshine and smelled the grass :)
She is very quiet and calm, when she was much better I could easily take her out for a walk on her lead :D
Now she's curled up on my legs purring.
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Re: New user - Cat with squamous cell carcinoma

Post by Antonio »

Didi wrote:I have no experience with mouth cancers but 12 months ago I had to make that awful decision and yes sometimes I feel so bad and scared that I made it to soon but most of the time I know it was the right time. I think we hav such bonds with our cats that we just know when the time has come, it's possibly the hardest decision to make but also the bravest and when our cats are ready when they feel the time is right then they find ways to tell us. It sounds as if Lola is not there yet just a bit put out by the syringe feeding. im sure when she is ready then she will let you know and it will be clear to you that the time has come to give her one last gift one last great act demonstrating your love for her by letting her go.
Thanks Didi!
I do hope I'll be able to understand that message from her.
She's just had her meal. She let me know she was hungry, she took her meal without fighting. I can see her point of view, taking food for a syringe down her mouth must be a real discomfort, but she's happy afterwards :)
One day will come when she refuses her food and runs away from me. That could be the day...
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Re: New user - Cat with squamous cell carcinoma

Post by Antonio »

booktigger wrote:I'm so sorry to hear this - it definitely sounds like you are going above and beyond for your girl. It is hard to know the right time, but the reasoning behind doing it too early is to prevent suffering - I've let most of mine go early, I've never regretted it as while yes, I've lost time with them, they have all been terminally ill and I saved potential suffering, as they can't tell us how they are feeling. The ones that I haven't, I've been able to see I'm their eyes that they have had enough. Hope that helps.

In the meantime, spoil her as much as you can, and take as many pics as you can, so you have good memories
Hi Booktigger, many people and doctors told me that I am doing things above the average, and probably this level of care is what will make the parting harder.
At the moment she's still very active and loves my presence, I don't think she's suffering or she'd hide in a far and quiet corner of the house. A few minutes ago she was purring while trying to fall asleep in my lap :)

Yes, I'm spoiling her in any possible way and taking pics of her every time I can. I also take short clips and record her purring, miaowing and snoring :D
I want as many memories of her as possible!

Thanks for your support.
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Re: New user - Cat with squamous cell carcinoma

Post by Antonio »

I had told you that Lola had half of her tongue removed on Monday. This was before the front half of it had gone necrotic. She's been left with the rear half of it and no doubt that it will share the same destiny in a rather short time.
Her breath has a bad smell but it doesn't seem to bother her.
As a matter of fact she already had a smelly breath in last March. I had reported it to the vets and they told me it was nothing to worry about, because she was sick and the whole digestive system was affected. At that time no diagnosis had been issued yet. Lola was weak and had pains all over her body, but they haven't found out what the real problem was. I had looked for many different opinions from many different vets, but it took two months to understand that it was hyperaldosteronism, a rare and hard to diagnose disease.

I have recently read that among the several symptoms of mouth cancer is the bad breath smell. So now I'm wondering whether something was already there one year ago and went unnoticed though I had insisted on this issue.
After all it was overlooked during the CT scan prior to the surgery for the adrenalectomy in July to solve her hyperaldosteronism.
When in late September I found out what Lola has, I had the doctors at the clinic review the scan and they admitted that the cancer was already there and they hadn't seen it :evil:
It was really small, I think it could have been removed easily and now I could have my Lola safe and sound.
One of the tips the doctors give is to take things early, but it can hardly be done when they are blindfolded :evil:
Please, forgive my rants.
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Re: New user - Cat with squamous cell carcinoma

Post by booktigger »

Antonio wrote:I had told you that Lola had half of her tongue removed on Monday. This was before the front half of it had gone necrotic. She's been left with the rear half of it and no doubt that it will share the same destiny in a rather short time.
Her breath has a bad smell but it doesn't seem to bother her.
As a matter of fact she already had a smelly breath in last March. I had reported it to the vets and they told me it was nothing to worry about, because she was sick and the whole digestive system was affected. At that time no diagnosis had been issued yet. Lola was weak and had pains all over her body, but they haven't found out what the real problem was. I had looked for many different opinions from many different vets, but it took two months to understand that it was hyperaldosteronism, a rare and hard to diagnose disease.

I have recently read that among the several symptoms of mouth cancer is the bad breath smell. So now I'm wondering whether something was already there one year ago and went unnoticed though I had insisted on this issue.
After all it was overlooked during the CT scan prior to the surgery for the adrenalectomy in July to solve her hyperaldosteronism.
When in late September I found out what Lola has, I had the doctors at the clinic review the scan and they admitted that the cancer was already there and they hadn't seen it :evil:
It was really small, I think it could have been removed easily and now I could have my Lola safe and sound.
One of the tips the doctors give is to take things early, but it can hardly be done when they are blindfolded :evil:
Please, forgive my rants.
I understand your frustration, I lost a cat to SCC and his was dismissed for months - the nurse suspected it was, but the vet said it was just an ulcer as he had probable calici, it was only 3 months later when we saw a different vet that he said cancer - I argued with him at first - I lost him 3 weeks later and have always wondered if he could have had longer if the first vet had diagnosed it correctly. Unfortunately we'll never know and can only deal with the situation
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Re: New user - Cat with squamous cell carcinoma

Post by Antonio »

I and my cat Lola have been left alone in this battle.
The vets let me understand that they have little interest and intention to keep caring her, because according to their opinion she should have died already. but she stubbornly keeps living and enjoying her life, against all forecasts. How rude of her!
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Re: New user - Cat with squamous cell carcinoma

Post by Lilith »

Yes, you and Lola do sound to be alone but the forum's here to support you, from a distance I know.

You must feel very angry that the vets refused to recognise the cancer - don't blame you for ranting; I'd do the same!

Please do try to eat and sleep more and keep up your strength as well as Lola's, and I do hope you two can have some good times ahead of you, despite the cancer. All the very best! x
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Re: New user - Cat with squamous cell carcinoma

Post by Antonio »

Last night and today Lola wasn't fine, she was a bit down and not too hungry. She asked for food, but it showed less interest when I gave her her usual syringe... I hope it's just a bad moment for her now, but I know I have to be ready any time.
I had bad dreams over the last two nights :(
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Re: New user - Cat with squamous cell carcinoma

Post by Antonio »

Things are not going well, I think...
Two weeks ago my cat had a good half of her tongue removed because it was necrotic. She seemed to be fine afterwards and was even more lively.
In the last 24 hours she went a bit downhill, I had a look in her mouth and the necrotic tissue has been spreading further on the remaining part of her tongue and also on the bottom of her mouth, the soft part that was once covered by her tongue.
The smell is just as bad as two weeks ago.
What I see now in her mouth is terrible and though she isn't showing any sign of distress or discomfort I think it's unnatural to have such a condition. She wants to eat, she looks for me and asks for cuddles and lap. Everything looks so normal.
What could happen in the very next future? Will things be going downhill all of a sudden?
What should I do or be aware of?
People keep telling me that as long as she acts normally it's not time yet. My cat is a little warrior, she will fight till the end, I fear that she won't let go even if she's at the end of the road.
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Re: New user - Cat with squamous cell carcinoma

Post by Lilith »

Hi Antonio. I'm very sorry, but from what you describe this sounds very serious indeed.

She won't be in any pain because necrotic tissue can't sense pain, but I do feel that now you may have to consider saying goodbye to her; it's doubtful that the spread of necrosis can be checked. Poor girl, she has put up a valiant fight, and so have you. No cat could have had a more loving or devoted owner, but even if you fed her by a stomach tube or intravenously you or a vet couldn't stop what's going on in her mouth.

I wish I could be wrong, but this is what it sounds like to me. i'm so very very sorry to have to write this. Hugs, and fusses to Lola x
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Re: New user - Cat with squamous cell carcinoma

Post by Antonio »

Thanks Lilith, but how could I ever take her life when she's still so loving and full of life?
Today she wanted to stay outside in the sun for some minutes, she hugged me when I was syringe feeding her, and though she can't see me because she's blind she looks straight into my eyes.
How could I take this terrible decision? What would she think of me? :(
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Re: New user - Cat with squamous cell carcinoma

Post by Lilith »

Yes, it's an agonising decision, but although her spirit's strong and will live on after her body dies, her body is decaying. Again I'm sorry to sound so bleak, and I know it's easy for me, at a distance, on a keyboard, just to say these things, but I do know what you and Lola are going through, and I do feel for you.

I realise too that I'm not there with you and Lola and I'm not a vet, either, but I honestly don't think Lola will judge you for releasing her from this dreadful state you describe.

I wish I could say something to comfort you, but I do think the end is very close. I do wish you and Lola all the very very best and only wish there could be a happier outcome for you both.
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Re: New user - Cat with squamous cell carcinoma

Post by Antonio »

I've been thinking of this for weeks, trying to set my mind to this moment, but I don't think I'm ready yet, especially when I come back home and find her welcoming me, asking me to get out for a few minutes and then telling me to sit on the couch because she wants to snuggle on my lap.
I had hoped for a natural end or a clearer and undeniable sign.
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Re: New user - Cat with squamous cell carcinoma

Post by booktigger »

I'm sorry she physically seems worse but mentally seems fine - the problem with waiting is she could end up suffering, and you wouldn't want that end for her.
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Re: New user - Cat with squamous cell carcinoma

Post by vanilla »

Oh Antonio I'm so sorry to hear this. I totally understand where you are coming from. Since the diagnosis I have been in two minds as what to do. It's a very worrying time and something that I don't even want to think about. She sounds like a strong girl and wants to continue. All you can do is monitor her and look out for signs that it's getting too much for her. *hugs*
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Re: New user - Cat with squamous cell carcinoma

Post by Antonio »

I'm terrified, I think that the moment isn't far away.
Last night she wasn't her usual herself, she didn't want to eat as she used to. She just wanted to sleep.
This morning she looked even a bit worse, she didn't purr or reply to my questions.
But she followed me around the house, used the scratchpole with energy, she touched my leg with her paw that is her way to tell me that she's hungry or needs attentions. She wanted to take a short walk in the garden. Then I gave her some food. My intention was not to give too much food, but eventually she took the whole syringe, 50 grams, with no problems.

These symptoms conflict. On one hand I see a tired cat who lacks appetite and has a bad mouth. On the other hand I have a cat who enjoys my company, asks for attentions, does her usual things in her usual way, she also shows some interest in certain things that happen around her. She shows much strength in everything she does.
Why don't I have a clear sign about what I have to do? :(
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Re: New user - Cat with squamous cell carcinoma

Post by booktigger »

To me, not purring is the indication
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Re: New user - Cat with squamous cell carcinoma

Post by Antonio »

booktigger wrote:To me, not purring is the indication
Why does this conflict with her will of staying with me, going outside, enjoying the sun, scratching the post? :(
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Ruth B
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Re: New user - Cat with squamous cell carcinoma

Post by Ruth B »

Not purring and not talking is a bad sign, but wanting to follow you around and go outside (as long as she isn't looking for a bush to curl up under) are good signs. All you can do is to decide if the good signs continue to outweigh the bad ones. If the bad signs and times start to take up most of her day then that would be when I felt it was time to give her peace.

My heart really goes out to you, the effort you have put in to give her a good quality of life in her last weeks is amazing and it is a shame that more people around you haven't supported you in it. Whenever you decide that the time has finally come and her quality of life isn't what you would want for her you can let her go knowing you did everything possible including making that final decision. I hope this is just a blip and she will pick up later today, but with her ongoing conditions even something as minor as a bit of a cold will hit her harder than most, lets hope it is only something like that.
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Re: New user - Cat with squamous cell carcinoma

Post by Antonio »

Tonight plenty of good signs. When I came home from work she was quite happy to see me, she made a miaow to me. Then she went outside for some minutes, not to hide under some bush or shrub, it was to explore the yard. Then she came inside, she wanted me to sit on the couch so that she could sleep on my lap. Half an hour later I had my dinner with her on my lap, happy to smell our food from the table. After dinner she ate her food in the syringe, then she used the scratching post, she used the litter tray, explored the house, then she came to me on the couch, climbed up my legs to reach my lap (again), kneaded my belly, made lots of purrs and eventually curled up for a good nap. She's sleeping now, I'm typing from the tablet.
At the moment everything seems so bright, but we have only postponed the terrible decision...
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